Sunday, May 01, 2005

Who Calls First?

It’s May 1st, and my blog vacation is now over! And just in time to add my $0.02 on the fascinating topic of asymmetric dating norms.

Captain Capitalism, a single man, blogs about The One That Got Away. And in his comments section, Jacqueline Passey explains his fatal error:
You need to ask HER for HER NUMBER and then YOU CALL HER. … [Y]ou may not realize how competitive the situation is. Good women - the attractive, smart, and witty ones - have many men pursuing them. Why should they waste their time on a guy who doesn't like them enough to take the initiative to call them?

For example: I'm above average in attractiveness, but I'm no supermodel. I'm above [average] in intelligence, but with nothing to show for it yet (no degree or career). I am not the hottest thing on the dating market. Yet when I post a personal ad I get 50+ (sometimes 100+) responses. Men walk up to me and ask me out in stores and on the street. Over a dozen of my male friends have expressed interest in more than friendship, and dozens more email me via my blog.

Unless you are getting a similar level of attention from women, when you meet a hot woman you need to remember that you are competing to date her, not vice versa. [emphasis added] [Jacqueline continues on her own blog here.]
Jacqueline is relying on a kind of market power argument here: because there are more men looking for women than the reverse, women get their pick of the litter. They can demand both higher price and higher quality. To be specific, they can demand that men expend greater effort and assume the risk of embarrassment by making the first call.

But why do women (appear to) have this kind of market power? Men and women exist in about equal numbers, after all, so as a first approximation we might expect men and women to have about equal market power.

One intuitive response: the mating market is segmented according to the depth of relationship sought. Men significantly outnumber women in the one-night-stand market, thus giving women in that market the power to pick and choose. But the flip-side of this argument is that women outnumber men in the long-term-relationship market, so men should have the upper hand there. Yet Jacqueline’s claim above is not (solely) about transient encounters – it’s about dating and long-term relationships as well, and she’s saying women still hold most of the cards.

At least with respect to phone calls, I attribute the expectation that men will call women, and not the reverse, to the fuzzy boundary between the short- and long-term mating markets. The phoning stage sits smack in the middle of the fuzzy zone. In the circumstances where people meet and phone numbers are exchanged, such as bars, a disproportionate number of people – especially men – are shopping for a one-night-stand. Some phone numbers are given (and taken) out of sheer politeness, with no intent to use them. Yet the hope, for some at least, is that a phone number could lead to something more long-term. Now, say you’re a woman who’s been given a man’s number; think of that man as a random draw from the nightclub population. Given what we know about that population, there’s a pretty good chance he was merely seeking a one-night-stand. Call him, and he might be willing to pursue you just long enough to get what he was looking for, albeit somewhat later than he’d hoped. But if he calls you, there’s a greater probability (though still not 100%) that he’s shopping for something more long-term. In short, waiting for men to call is a kind of screening device designed to separate the short-term from the longer-term market.

An additional, and complementary, explanation is that phoning signals the possession of masculine attributes that many women value – courage or something like it. As Jacqueline says elsewhere in CC’s comments section, “If a guy doesn't have the balls to ask me for my number and call me, I don't want to date him. I'm not attracted to passive men.” (If men also value "ballsiness" in women, they presumably don’t value it as much.) What this explanation shares with the one above is that phoning is not simply the higher “price” required of men because of their low market power. Rather, it is a conveyor of information in a market where discovering the attributes of the other people – what they have and what they’re looking for – is the very essence of the endeavor.

What remains to be explained is why, even ignoring the who-calls-first issue, women appear to have greater market power than men in the long-term relationship market. I hope to tackle that one in a future post.

26 comments:

secret asian man said...

The answer to the greater female market power is pretty obvious if we narrow it down to desirable women and desirable men:

When I was in engineering school, we used to cynically observe that the laws for chemical equilibria seemed to hold quite well - given a surplus of men, even unattractive women are pushed into couple-hood.

I've heard similar ocmments about unattractive men at liberal arts schools.

In the case of the market at large, it's simply age of desirability.

Women are sought after between the ages of 15 and 30, more or less - 15 years. Men, on the other hand, are in the market from 18 to 48, more or less.

Thus, there are twice as many candidate men as candidate women - and likely ten times as many single men as single women.

Every 20-something year old man knows he can get all the 40+ year old women that he could ever want - he just doesn't want them, and that drives the inequality.

JB said...

There is little doubt in my mind that the willingness to call is a key piece of information to many women. Courage, I think, is not nearly rated as high enough. That being said, there are certainly a number of rules that apply once the number has been obtained...don't call too soon, specific is better than general, and don't wonder, ask the question, get necessary information, thank, and close.

As for Jacqueline's perceptions, I think this comes from the fact that generally, men's looks tend not to draw women to them, average men can get "above-average" women provided the entire package is there. However, the converse is more difficult, a great personality doesn't do a whole lot for most guys. Also, given a cultural perception that men ought to ask this changes the dynamics.

That being said, if you actually examine a "long-term relationship" market if you will, I think you'd see that despite other perceptions men have a substantial upper-hand.

I think this is best borne out in single's groups in churches. The men may still be expected to call, but they are generally substantially outnumbered and tend to not remain on the market long.

The key is, since the changes of curtural mores, it seems even more women have begun to expect shorter relationships with the possibility for longer-term. Things have changed so that most relationships are really short-term ones with options to continue.

Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey said...

I was talking specifically about the market for *quality* (as perceived by the men) women.

Men care a lot about looks, and given that 2/3rds of Americans are overweight, most women are unattractive by most men's standards. There are also a lot of single mothers out there, something else most men tend to avoid. Single, childless, thin, attractive, intelligent women are relatively rare.

Whereas women care a lot about men's resources. Quality men with degrees, steady jobs, etc. are relatively more common than quality women.

Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey said...

Also, if you read up on evolutionary psychology you'll find that men primarily value attractiveness and chastity and they have lower standards of attractiveness and chastity for short term relationships (one night stands etc.) than for long term relationships (wives etc.).

If a woman calls or otherwise pursues a man, even if he's not that into her he'll often go along because he thinks maybe she wants to have sex with him. But he's not interested in a long term relationship.

Whereas men will pursue the women they really want and want a long term relationship with. That he has to pursue her instead of vice versa is a signal of her chastity.

Anonymous said...

Jackie: "Whereas men will pursue the women they really want and want a long term relationship with. That he has to pursue her instead of vice versa is a signal of her chastity."--I don't know about that. Yes it's true that a man will pursue a woman he wants a LT relationship with, probably because she's being pursued by others or that she's taken. But I don't think just because she's being pursued is a signal of her chastity. For all we know she could be a classy looking call-girl by night that looks perfectly desirable enough to take home to mom. It's generally first the looks (from what i hear from men), and then the whole package (education, personality, job, etc).
And maybe the "he has to pursue her first" gives the guy the conquest thrill of winning the girl over.
And as far as the woman pursuing the man, maybe he was her type but she wasn't his type--that's common. And nowadays, what does chaste mean? That you're a virgin? Highly unlikely. With the modern day dating scene, things are changing with women wanting different things than they used to. I'm not saying this is how things should be, but just stating what i'm observing or reading.
"If a woman calls or otherwise pursues a man, even if he's not that into her he'll often go along because he thinks maybe she wants to have sex with him. But he's not interested in a long term relationship."--Yeah, I agree with you on this for the most part. But even if *he's* the one that calls her, he might still just want sex.


JB's statment: "The key is, since the changes of cultural mores, it seems even more women have begun to expect shorter relationships with the possibility for longer-term. Things have changed so that most relationships are really short-term ones with options to continue."--I think this sheds a little light to your question "why women appear to have greater market power than men in the long-term relationship market too."--Everyone (i'm making an asssumption) ultimately wants a LT relationship; even men who seek out one-night-stands. But not every shoe one tries on fits. So people just accept that most relationships will be short-term (even if intended for LT), leaving open the possibility of LT. Really, how does anyone know if a relationship will be for the long-haul? Even if the couple looked perfect on paper--it could be just that. Women still have the advantage even in LT markets b/c men and women ultimately want the same thing even with all the in-betweens. And finding a quality woman (or the guy's type) might be tough/scarce.

reading back my comment, i sound really cynical. i'm not that cynical, just rational.

susan

lizriz said...

It might be interesting to note that all of the recent female-centric dating self-help books (which I read purely for screenplay research) (yes, that's why) are currently EMPHATIC on the guy calling first. This is presented as necessary because 1) if a man is interested, he will call you and thereby convey his actual interest, and 2) a man who will call is, as you say, the TYPE of man you want to date. Confident, etc. Personally, I think under this philosophy the TYPE of relationship/ experience you are looking for is irrelevent - you want a guy who is interested enough to call you regardless of your long or short-term relationship goals.

While I might argue that a woman making an initial phone call or initiating a first date can be totally cool - personally, I try to fall on the side of common sense and normalcy (would I call a platonic friend in this situation, if yes, then I pick up the phone) - I did have a rather intense learning experience in this area last year. I learned that if a man senses he isn't good enough for you and knows he is a dysfunctional mess while you are not, he will likely not pursue you. But if you pursue him, then he will think, this incredible woman is interested in me, how can I not at least try to be ready/ functional for this? Cut to HUGE romantic disaster. Honestly, I'm still not sure what the "right" way to be about it is, but I have grown A LOT more cautious about opening moves, for better or for worse.

As an aside, asking for someone's number to be polite is simply ridiculous and makes absolutely no sense at all. Why would anyone do that?

Anonymous said...

I don't think the "quality" men really have any advantage in either long or short term relationships. I think this is because women in the relevant demographic (18 - 25) aren't generally looking for "quality" men. When I go to clubs and bars women rarely leave with or even give phone numbers to the intellectual, well paid, fairly attractive engineers or economists. They give their numbers and go home with tall, good looking guys who may have decent jobs but who are intellectually stifled and who have demonstrated by their behavior that they are more interested in a physical relationship than a full relationship, i.e. by immediately attempting to kiss the girl rather than trying to engage her in conversation. I have many gay friends who constantly opine that I would have no trouble getting a date if I were gay and in fact when I go to gay clubs I get approached left and right. Female friends also indicate that I would be a "good catch" however they are more rational in their assessment and also indicate that I'm still not going to be able to get high quality females because of my height and that I should just give up on searching for them. Primarily it seems the reason gay men respond so favorably to me is because they don't care about the height requirement in the same degree that women do.

JB said...

But Anonymous,

Like I said before Men drastically undervalue courage in the dating ritual. Courage, goes so much further than most men think, and weakness does so much to destroy one's chances.

Anonymous said...

Courage really doesn't do much if there isn't a carnal attraction to begin with. I make a point of approaching at least two women a day and have been doing that for the last couple of years with results that are dismally poor. I might add that it does not appear to be my approach as I have had people go with me to observe and give me feedback about what I might be doing wrong and I keep getting told that there is nothing inherently wrong with my approach, it just doesn't seem to appeal to the women. Ultimately if a woman is attracted to a guy she will find a reason to say yes and if not it doesn't seem to matter much what you do.

Anonymous said...

Anon 1: "women in the relevant demographic (18 - 25) aren't generally looking for "quality" men...women rarely leave with or even give phone numbers to the intellectual, well paid, fairly attractive engineers or economists. They give their numbers and go home with tall, good looking guys who may have decent jobs but who are intellectually stifled and who have demonstrated by their behavior that they are more interested in a physical relationship than a full relationship."--I don't know about that. Most women I know, and I myself when I was that age and still now look for engineers, economists, doctors or whatever (intellectual stable types). I won't even think to have a short-term relationship or are even attracted to men unless I thought the person possessed most of the qualities I look for in someone i'd consider for LT relationship. Sounds extremely calculated? I don't think so. I think it's subconscious; a lot of women are wired that way. And look where you are looking--you're looking in bars, where majority of the demographics are the type of women who are probably uneducated as well--unless you're in a college bar. And in their case, it's not that they are not looking for quality men, they're just not looking to settle down so they can afford to hook up with whoever. when I was in college (around 19), I didn't want to date an older man with a career, that seemed kinda creepy to me that he would hit on me at that age. i was interested in other boys my age (but they were intellectual too, so I don't think it's true that girls that age don't care about intelligence). but give them a few years post college, and the scene totally changes. you bet almost *all* women look for quality men and older and established.

so you men have some advantages in LT/marriage market as you get older; even the desirability of a married man goes up. for women, it seems to be generally the opposite as she gets older, (although i don't think this is necessarily true).

sk

Glen Whitman said...

Quality is a subjective matter, albeit one on which there is often substantial agreement. The *usual* summary is that men define quality in terms of looks, while women define quality in terms of intelligence and money. Anonymous seems to be arguing that women actually care about looks more than the conventional wisdom says they do. Okay, perhaps so. But that doesn't mean women aren't looking for "quality" men -- it just means their definition of quality is a more complex amalgam of characteristics. Which is true for men, too; it's not that men *only* care about looks, it's just that looks weigh heavily in the calculus.

lizriz said...

Anonymous,

Are you bitter? Seriously, sometimes when you've gone a long time with little dating success, it can be difficult not to gain an edge of bitterness. This, of course, is the kiss of death. Women can smell fear and desperation - let's face it, everyone can. Somehow you have to continue to put yourself out there without getting bitter.

Here's two things to help: First off, I personally never go to a bar or a club to meet men. When I go to a bar or a club I'm there to dance and have fun with my friends. On occasion I may meet someone that way, it's happened, but it's hardly the norm and I'm sure that's partly because I don't solicite that sort of attention and frankly sometimes flee from it. I agree with SK, if you've only been looking for women in bars, that's your first problem right there. We live in a computer age in Los Angeles, there's so many other ways to meet quality people it makes my head spin.

Secondly, if we must generalize by gender, you do have an advantage as a man and it is this: women are far more likely to remain openminded about potential mates. My "type" is tall, lanky boys, my age or younger. That said, in the past couple years I (age 33) have dated 2 short men and a 43-year old. This was not (secret asian man) due to desperation or slim pickin's or anything else like that. It was because these men had qualities I found extremely attractive. When faced with an honorable, intelligent, talented and witty red head with a great body who was shorter than I might prefer were I creating my own Weird Science manbot, I gave it a go. I mean, come on, red hair! Love it! Sadly, it's been my observation that many men are much more likely to dismiss women quickly if they can't check off their whole list of wants and desires.

Luckily, quality women know that these men will die bald, lonely and alone.

Remember, it's important not to get bitter. ;)

I do agree with you that carnal attraction is key. I'm just saying that even without knowing how tall you are or what you look like at all, I can bet that if you are an intellectual, well-paid, fairly attractive engineer or economist with a good attitude who continues to put himself out there in new ways, you will find her.

Anonymous said...

I probably do sound bitter, but that really isn't what is influencing my judgement here. As I have said, I have had others go out with me to confirm that it is not an issue of my approach and to seek suggestions. I also don't look exclusively at bars and clubs, however there are simply more attractive women at bars and clubs than there are at bookstores and coffee shops. When I indicate that I approach two women a day, that is not an exaggeration...if anything it is an understatement since weekends often result in a half dozen approaches. That means in the last two years I have approached well over a thousand women and gotten nowhere. I think its safe to say its a large enough number though that it is a good sample of women.

I have to ask though...the implication regarding bars and clubs that uneducated women are the ones going there suffers from two problems in my estimation. One, I have just not found it to be true...at least not in the Michigan area. Two, why would it be presumed that uneducated women would care less about getting a "quality" man than an educated one would? If anything, my prospects should improve if the crowd is less educated because I am raising my relative standing among competitors.

As to alternatives to bars and clubs, as I indicated I go virtually everywhere from cooking classes to the gym to coffee shops and book stores. I also have tried online dating (interesting figure though that 57% of men on online dating services never receive a single response. Also the data seems to indicate that both men and women are lying online anyway, and while that did not stop me from pursuing it I have to say that I sent out well over a hundred emails and got a total of one response which puts me better off than the 57% I suppose. I have never had particular success regardless of the place or methodolgy. In fact I have finally resorted to paying 2k to a matchmaker so I'll let you know how that turns out but I'm out of new ideas after that.

I must say emphatically that I do not believe women are more flexible in their requirements than men. Most of my female friends are emphatic that they would never date anyone short period.

I am generally a very optimistic person though with a good attitude. I have a great job that I love and the flexibility to live anywhere I want to and set my own schedule as I see fit. I see my boss a total of 2 - 3 times a year which makes the stress level almost nonexistent. Ultimately I'm a really lucky guy and I know it, but at the same time I'm extremely lonely. I may come off as bitter in these posts, but I think if you talked to anyone who knows me it would be pretty clear that I don't come across that way in person. In fact, generally I come off as too upbeat and frequently get accused of being on drugs (though in a joking way). In most respects I am a quality man, but I think the idea that if you are a good person and work hard you will get what you want is dangerous because it isn't true. There are many great guys and women who through no fault of their own will never end up with anyone or if they do it will be someone who they really aren't attracted to but they settled for simply because they were afraid of being alone in their old age. We need to recognize that there can be nothing wrong with a person and they will still be incapable of overcoming the biases of the opposite sex. That doesn't make the opposite sex is to blame, but it doesn't mean that the guy or girl is doing anything wrong either, but I think that is the attitude we seem to have over the subject.

Anonymous said...

yeah seriously, i hate that word "quality"--how the hell did we start using that word on this thread? it sounds so much like one of them ads, "you can talk to quality singles in your area now, so call now!"--ugh.

Anon, if you're looking in the demographics of age 28-25 (from your previous post), then it sounds like you're still pretty young and I wouldn't worry too much about finding that someone. But if you're a much older man, maybe you need to not set such a strict age limit. maybe you're being unrealistic in your expectations if that's the case.
and seriously, i don't think approaching women in cafes or supermarkets is going to do you any good. you're probably better off joining some group, club, organizations. i never really call any of those strangers who approach me. it's just too uncomfortable--you want to be in a more natural setting where they get to see your personality.
hope things work out.

oh and i wasn't saying that bar patrons are full of only uneducated women. it was a direct response to your comment about the specific women you mentioned going after unintelligent men. i would think those women that do so don't value intelligence as much b/c they themselves are not.

sk

Anonymous said...

i meant age 18-25 not 28-25.

lizriz said...

Anonymous,

I hear you, I do. Some people lived their whole lives in the Dark Ages. We don't all get a happy ending. You're right.

But it is a real phenomenon how attitude and beliefs affect our lives. That said, I didn't mean to sound like I was judging that you were doing anything "wrong." Most of us are simply doing the best we can.

Judging by the age range you're looking for, I'm hoping that you are in your low to mid 20s (as opposed to being some 30 year old guy who won't date anyone his age which would put you in the same category as all these women who won't date anyone shorter than them). So I would guess that your main frustration is that you've been trying and trying consistently to find someone with no success (as opposed to age-related panic). This also probably means that your emphatic (and seemingly quite negative) female friends are young as well, and that their opinions may soften with maturity. Ok, now that I've thrown out assumptions like a crazy woman...

Here's a wild, warm and crunchy thought from LaLa Land. Try something counterintuitive and give yourself permission to stop trying. Not give up forever - just take a break. You've been pounding the pavement for two years now. Take a pursuit of women vacation. Six months. A year even! I know this may sound like ridiculous advice when you're feeling lonely, and feel free to call me Alice, but honestly, there is power in counterintuitive action. And there's power in taking a break from a goal.

SK - funny about the word "quality." I thought about it, and I realized that when I use it what I'm thinking in my mind is someone who's not clinically dysfunctional - basically, just a good person. Considering some of the men I've encountered in L.A., it's an important distinction to me. But it is like an eHarmony buzz word or something. hehe

Anonymous said...

I just thought I'd quickly address the question about my age. As it happens, I am 25. I have approached women older than myself as well, including women in their mid thirties but haven't had any success with them either. That being said, I do want to have a relationship with a 20-something before I get older in part because I don't want to be one of those 30-something guys who can't get over the fact he never got to date some hot young woman. I honestly believe that there are phases in your dating life that if you never get to experience you will never be able to move onto the next phase. Ideally I could meet a twenty something who I could grow old with, but even if its just a brief relationship I think it is important to be with someone you are physically attracted to at least once in your life. I am more attracted to women in their early to mid twenties as a generality and let's be honest, that isn't likely to change as I get older. (I have met some very attractive women who are older, don't get me wrong, and I approach them even today, but they do not occur with nearly the frequency of the younger set. Also most of the older women I end up approaching turn out to be either married or don't want to date a guy my age.)

As far as taking a break, I just don't find it realistic. I was in the Banking Industry in California making almost twice what I'm making now and left it because of the long work weeks (80+ hours a week) which left me little time to pursue a relationship. I still make good money (and in 3 - 4 years I'll be back where I was at with my old job) and I like my job much more, but that wasn't the reason I left my old job. Also if I don't actively seek a woman to have an emotional/mental/and dear god please a physical relationship, I will never leave the office and just work which does me little good since I'm on salary. I get the advice from alot of people to stop looking and I understand where it comes from, but I will call you Alice in this case because I spent four years working full time and going to school full time to get my first degree and as far as I'm concerned that's too long a break already.

On a final note, believe me, I've tried plenty of organizations (with the exception, no matter how often it is repeated, of church groups-I am Agnostic and tend to argue philosophical proofs for the existence of God with the clergy and I have no respect for Anselm's proof by definition or C.S. Lewis "faith proves god's existence for the believer.") and I will continue to try, but organizations have been some of my worst results since after a woman rejects you, you still have to see them regularly and there is usually, though not always, an uncomfortable vibe that goes with it.

Thanks for the advice though.

Glen Whitman said...

Okay, this is pretty far off topic, but I have a piece of advice for Anonymous. Anonymous, women are like cats. If you walk into a house with a cat, and you start saying, "Here kitty kitty kitty kitty, c'mere, C'MERE, c'mere...", that cat will almost assuredly ignore you. But if you come in, hang out, get comfortable, and start watching the ball game... eventually, that cat will come over and start rubbing all over your legs.

Point being, you've got to have your own life going on. You need some male pals to hang out, drink, and play pool/darts with. Make it your mission to have a good time with your friends at the bar (or wherever), whether there are women or not. Maybe the women won't start rubbing on your legs, but they will probably be more receptive to your overtures.

And btw, Liz is right, women can sniff out desperation a mile away. You can have perfect technique, and it won't make a bit of difference. So you have to decide that finding a woman doesn't matter that much, and then you'll find one. If the cat knows how much you want to pet her, she'll hide under the bed.

Anonymous said...

Glen,

Thanks for the advice, but I doubt its practical in my instance. I just don't like hanging out with single heterosexual guys and to be honest they don't much like me. I have "friends" but they aren't the type of people who actually go out. They are either married, gay, or lesbian, or complete geeks. My gay friends hate going anyplace "straight" so if I want to go out with them I end up going to gay bars or clubs, which isn't a problem, but I'm not likely to meet any attractive women there. Going out with a collection of geeks (unnattractive, obnoxious, completely boring, statiticians and engineers) has proven to me in the past the worst way to meet women as they RUN away the second they meet any of them and these guys aren't the type who like to go out much anyway.

Once again, if I weren't looking for a woman, I would very likely never go anyplace where there are women, so while I appreciate the advice, I just don't think it is very helpful for me.

Anonymous said...

Anon (no offense intended by this post):
umm...and I want to bed 'Legolas' and 'Captain Mal' too but that option is not real and neither are these characters. You wanting to bed the hottest chick in the bar is something like it--it might as well just be in your head.

And you saying something about how you hate hanging out with men esp. your male colleagues because it makes your stock go down definitely makes you sound like someone that many women wouldn't be attracted too--that actually sounds really immature. And you state that they don't like you either. Maybe there's a reason and therin lies your answer to why women don't seem to either at this juncture in your life. hanging out with same sex buddies are really fun too and you are more likely to meet women that way, or if you weren't so discriminating of them, they'd introduce you to some of their female friends.

no offense, but maybe it's just the function of your age, but you seem to have unrealistic expectations. just relax and don't try so hard.

sk

Anonymous said...

Can't get a date? It must be your fate.
The reason is plain as the nose on your face.
Your dating skills are lacking is clearly the case.
Glen tried to help you, but you just decline.
Unwilling to view the opposite sex as feline.
Strange though, you whine and moan like a cat. Dummy, you can't just magically pull a bunny out of hat.
Glen is so cute but clearly you're not. I doubt that you'll ever find a girl that is hot.

Anonymous said...

Wow...I think I may have been somewhat misunderstood before. When I mentioned the "geeks" I could hang out with, I do believe it makes my stock go down, but that is not why I don't hang out with them...it is exactly because of all the things I said, they are obnoxious, unnattractive, and boring. I don't like hanging out with them. The idea that Glen proposed was I think in part that you should be out doing your own thing and having fun and women will be interested in you, however I rarely have fun with these people (the possible exception being during the U.S. Scrabble championship as broadcast on ESPN2). I would also add that my geek "friends" don't have any attractive female friends...believe me I have prospected in that mine so to speak. They actually have it much worse than me in terms of meeting women, which is another reason I feel lucky, but despite the fact that they have worse prospects than I do for finding someone doesn't mean I suddenly end up with someone.

I think Glen has a valid point, but what I think is being missed is that if I were to hang out with these people it would still be with the objective of picking up women since I would not be socializing with these people otherwise. Maybe that makes me sound immature, but I don't see how finding people you work with and went to school with annoying makes you immature if they really are boring and uninteresting people with horrible senses of humor.

I should probably just responding to the comments at this point since it has gotten way off topic and I hate to hijack another person's blog to discuss my dating life/or lack thereof, but I will say that I don't think finding someone you are attracted to to date is an unrealistic expectation. I'm not asking for the most beautiful woman in the world, but I want someone that I find physically appealing, as do we all. Incidentally, for what it is worth, I'm not bad looking as that seems to be the impression that I may have given some people. I have no shortage of gay men willing to sleep with me, but sadly that isn't much help to a straight guy like myself.

js

Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey said...

"I did have a rather intense learning experience in this area last year. I learned that if a man senses he isn't good enough for you and knows he is a dysfunctional mess while you are not, he will likely not pursue you. But if you pursue him, then he will think, this incredible woman is interested in me, how can I not at least try to be ready/ functional for this? Cut to HUGE romantic disaster."

Oh, shit, I think you just described my current relationship. :(

Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey said...

"I make a point of approaching at least two women a day and have been doing that for the last couple of years with results that are dismally poor."

You need more than just marketing, you also need product development. What have you been doing to improve yourself and make yourself more appealing to women?

Jacqueline Mackie Paisley Passey said...

Jeez, JS, having read the rest of your comments, I have to ask have you considered that it might just be the demographics of where you are?

I hope Glen doesn't mind this but here's a link to a post quoting a comment that might shed light on your situation: "The Census Bureau can help you find a lover!".

Anonymous said...

Jacqueline,

Actually, that is the next step in my game plan. If the matchmaker thing doesn't work, I'm lucky enough to have a job that allows me to move pretty much anywhere in the country (though not at the highest pay so I would probably still avoid New York) so I'm planning to move to Cincinnati next year as that will allow me to keep my current boss and facilitate my last couple of promotions that he has control over before I try moving to a city in another region and try my luck there. I figure I'll give each city I live in a couple of years before moving on, but thanks for the link. I must admit while I had looked at demographics (and the demographics in my area aren't particularly bad on paper for me, but I haven't taken a full accounting of all the variables) I didn't go to quite the lengths in your link. Thanks for the heads up.

Also I do try to better myself to improve my standing including actively going to the gym, taking dance classes, cooking classes, taking Spanish classes (on that one I have to admit I don't think I will ever get past Spanish I, languages just don't seem to be my thing), and pretty much anything else I think might give me an advantage, but if you can't get a girl to dance with you your dancing skills don't matter much and if you can't get her on a date your cooking skills are pointless. I wish I could get the hang of Spanish though because it seems like the best chance I have to hit on women (although in this area I think I'd be better with Russian).

Anyway, I keep trying and hoping I don't age too badly to miss my chance with anyone I find attractive.

Thanks again,

JS